Benefits of Jujube Dates with Dana Hutchinson

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I am so excited to share this conversation with Dana Hutchinson. I really identified with her herbal path – like me, as a young person she suffered from a debilitating autoimmune condition, and it was through her search for healing that she found herbalism. As a clinical herbalist herself now, she offers so much hope for others in similar situations.  

Dana had so much to share about one of the first herbs that she worked with to help her overcome her illness, jujube dates (Ziziphus jujuba). This delicious, nourishing herb has so many gifts! Here are just a few benefits of jujube dates for your health:

► As a rich source of vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants

► Nourishes the blood, promotes healthy circulation, and supports the liver

► As a gentle ally for dealing with emotional trauma and a dysregulated nervous system

To learn more about the medicinal benefits of jujube dates, be sure to check out the entire episode!

You’ll also hear all about how Dana works with jujube to support clients with the autoimmune condition lichen sclerosus (the same illness that started her on her herbal path), including her fantastic recipe for Lichen Sclerosus Decoction. You’ll find a beautifully-illustrated recipe card for it in the section below.

By the end of this episode, you’ll know:

► What makes jujube such a helpful herbal ally for a wide variety of health conditions—including poor circulation, autoimmunity, and nervous system burnout

► Tips for sourcing jujube dates

► How to prepare jujubes to maximize their medicinal benefits

► Why jujube dates are often beneficial to include in immune formulations

► and so much more…

For those of you who don’t know her, Dana is a registered herbalist and mentor with the American Herbalist Guild and is the owner of Wildflower Clinic, a Traditional Chinese Medicine and Western clinical herbalism health center in Golden, Colorado. Dana and her team pride themselves on TCM diagnosis where they interpret the pulse, nails, skin, and tongues of clients in the autoimmune, infertility, and emotional trauma space, both in-person and virtually. 

Dana is also a faculty member at the Colorado School of Clinical Herbalism and an advanced course educator at the Herbal Academy. The Wildflower Clinic is one of the only herbal clinics in the world that alternatively supports the autoimmune condition lichen sclerosus, with botanical, lifestyle, and supplemental recommendations that have helped hundreds of women reach remission.

I can’t wait to share our conversation with you today!

Click here to access the audio-only page.

-- TIMESTAMPS -- for the Benefits of Jujube Dates

• 01:12 - Student spotlight
• 03:09 - Introduction to Dana Hutchinson
• 05:03 - Dana’s herbal path
• 25:43 - Medicinal benefits of jujube dates
• 31:25 - Where to buy jujube dates
• 33:29 - Jujube dates for the liver, the blood, and the nervous system
• 36:44 - Lichen Sclerosus Decoction recipe
• 46:10 - Jujube in herbal formulations
• 47:19 - Dana’s herbal offerings
• 50:15 - How herbs instill hope in Dana
• 57:57 - Herbal tidbit

Get Your Free Recipe!

This is a sample of a standard decoction formula that may be given to lichen sclerosus (LS) clients at the Wildflower Clinic. LS is an autoimmune condition that usually stems from unbalanced internal organ systems. This formula provides support for immunity, digestion, and the nervous system, while seeking to balance the stress response system, improve innate immunity, and harmonize the digestive tract. 

Ingredients:

• 70 grams Jujube Date (Ziziphus jujuba)
• 70 grams Peony Root (Paeonia lactiflora)
• 70 grams dried Shiitake (Lentinula edodes)
• 60 grams Fo-Ti (Polygonum multiflorum)
• 60 grams Chinese Red Sage (Dan Shen)
• 50 grams Rehmannia Root (Shu Di Huang)
• 40 grams Dong Quai (Dang Gui)
• 30 grams Orange Peel (Chen Pi)

Directions:

1. All herbs used in this recipe should be dried, not fresh. Stir herbs together until evenly mixed; store in a sealed container in a cool, dark place until ready to use.
2. When ready to prepare a decoction, pour 5 cups filtered water into a saucepan and heat on the stove until boiling.
3. Measure out 4 tablespoons (approximately 15 grams) of the bulk herbal mixture and place in the boiling water in the saucepan.
4. Reduce heat and simmer for 20 minutes.
5. Strain the liquid and compost the herbs; drink throughout the morning to early afternoon.

Connect with Dana

• Website | WildflowerClinic.com
• Instagram | @wildflowerclinic
• Facebook | the wildflower clinic

Transcript of the 'Benefits of Jujube Dates with Dana Hutchinson' Video

Rosalee de la Forêt:
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Okay. Grab your cup of tea and let’s dive in.

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I’m so excited to share this episode with you. My guest today is Dana Hutchinson. From the moment we started talking, her vibrant love for herbs came through loud and clear. In our conversation, she shines a beautiful light on one of her favorite plant allies, jujube dates. If you’ve never worked with them before, you’re in for a treat. Dana has a way of making you want to just run out and add them to your next cup of tea or bowl of soup. I think you’re going to be just as swept up in her joy and wisdom as I was. 

For those of you who don’t already know her, Dana is a registered herbalist and mentor with the American Herbalist Guild and is the owner of Wildflower Clinic, a Traditional Chinese Medicine and Western clinical herbalism health center in Golden, Colorado. Dana and her team pride themselves on TCM diagnosis where they interpret the pulse, nails, skin, and tongues of clients in the autoimmune, infertility, and emotional trauma space, both in-person and virtually. Dana is also a faculty member at the Colorado School of Clinical Herbalism and an advanced course educator at the Herbal Academy. The Wildflower Clinic is one of the only herbal clinics in the world that alternatively supports the autoimmune condition, lichen sclerosus, with botanical lifestyle and supplemental recommendations that has helped hundreds of women reach remission. 

Dana, thank you so much for being on the show. 

Dana Hutchinson:

Thank you so much for having me today. Really excited to be here. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

That has come through already because—so that everyone who’s listening or watching knows, we had some major tech problems getting this going. Dana has been fabulous! It’s been fun. This is probably the most fun tech problem I’ve ever had, so I highly recommend Dana for when you’re in a pickle. It’s been a blast and stuff, so thanks, Dana. 

Dana Hutchinson:

Yes, of course. I’m glad we’re here. Third time is a charm. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Absolutely! Thank you. Dana, I know a little bit about you, but not all that much, and I’m excited to hear about your herbal journey. 

Dana Hutchinson:

I am so happy to be here. Where would you like me to jump in? 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I’m so curious about maybe what first called you to the herbal path. Also, I’m really curious about how you became an herbal clinician because that’s a big deal. 

Dana Hutchinson:

Yes, it was a long journey. When I really think about how I stepped into the world as an herbalist and as a clinician now, I really kind of reflect on three different pillars of my life. The first area that I really think back to is actually the influence of my Hawaiian-Chinese culture. My family lineage is all Hawaiian-Chinese. My dad grew up in Hawaii. When we were younger, we had a huge influence of that tradition over the way that we viewed a myriad of different things, including just looking at nature not as being separate to us, but being part of us. I remember we used to discuss as a family different leaves, different roots, different barks, different flowers that we would utilize to, basically, treat little infections or colds or things that we were just wanting to remedy as kids. That had a huge influence on just really how I viewed the world around me. For instance, things that come to mind are: going for a hike wasn’t just a hike. It was a conversation with ancestors. There was this respect for nature that I think was just infiltrated throughout my whole childhood. I was just so grateful to have a start into the herbal world just through my culture there. I really try to carry that sense of connection throughout everything that I do currently. 

Moving into that second pillar, which is a huge inspiration for my private practice, the Wildflower Clinic, today, my mind actually goes to—again, a little bit older in childhood years, but spending time in the Colorado mountains. We lived in California. We’d travel out here to spend summers in Colorado where I live now. I remember on these hikes, on these camping trips, my mother would make such an effort to just turn my sister and I’s attention to the wildflowers. We’d usually be out there around July-August, when you’d just look at these beautiful valleys, of these arrays of colors of wildflowers just dancing and moving almost energetically, giving off these frequencies that I still remember today. It was almost this amazement. I see still the valleys of the pink firewood, the red Indian paintbrush, silvery blue lupine. They all just looked like they were speaking and had so much wisdom. I always remember that. When I wanted to name my private practice, that was the only thing that felt right was the medicine of all of these beautiful flowers has to be an integral part of that. That was the beautiful foundation.  

That third piece for me, unfortunately, didn’t start so happy and joyous. Like a lot of healers that I’m sure you’ve interviewed—my next piece stepping into that clinical role, actually started with me getting very, very sick. I was living in Australia at the time. I was not taking care of myself as normal teenagers do. It really all started with an undiagnosed nodule on my ear. I went into the doctor and they said, “We don’t know what it is. Let’s give you some antibiotics.” So, I took those. I was a teenager. I said, “Yeah, yeah,” I just want to get on with my life.” A couple of weeks later, I ended up getting a UTI, the first one I had ever had. They, again, recommended antibiotics so I took that. A week later, I had not improved, so I had to take another round. Now, we are at three rounds of antibiotics in about a month. Simultaneously, my mother ended up getting diagnosed with terminal brain cancer when I was over in Australia. That one absolutely pulled the rug out under my feet. My emotional state started to decline as you’d imagine, and my health was not improving. A couple of weeks later, a lot of antibiotic usage, I hadn’t changed anything about my lifestyle, of course, and I started getting some pretty severe vaginal discomfort. This was new for me. I ended up examining myself and noticed the initial signs of what I now know as “lichen sclerosus.” I had extreme burning. I had lesions, atrophy to the labia, fusing tissue, cuts, extreme irritation and swelling. It is not a fun condition. Of course, I went into the gynecologist and they said, “That looks like BV, bacterial vaginosis.” I said, “Okay. I’ve never heard of that,” and, of course, you-

Rosalee de la Forêt:

What did they do for that?

Dana Hutchinson:

That’s my fourth round of antibiotics. So, I take that. Things get progressively worse for me. I developed an anal fissure, which is excruciating in chronic states. If anyone listening has had one, my heart goes out to you. It is absolutely the worst pain I’ve ever experienced. My mental health was continuing to decline. My mother ended up passing away from brain cancer, which as we can imagine, did not help my physical health. I was depressed. I was processing grief. It felt like it was the lowest I’d ever been. 

Flash forward, I then went back to the gynecologist as things weren’t getting better. They did a biopsy on me. They said, “We’ll do a biopsy. We’ll see what this is.” I said, “Great! Let’s get moving here. This is very uncomfortable.” They ended up losing that biopsy. I just love putting that in there because I’m like, “Oh, my gosh!” That is not something you want to do again. I ended up getting a second biopsy. They confirm lichen sclerosus. Back then, they didn’t really know what this condition was. They thought it really only affected postmenopausal women, and how could someone who is 19 be diagnosed with this? There were a lot of questions. They ended up prescribing me. My two options were a steroid, clobetasol, or an estrogen cream. I remember the physician at the time mentioned, “Just take the steroid. Things will go away in a couple of weeks and you shouldn’t have to worry.” Of course, I blindly said yes. I don’t know anyone who wouldn’t in that current stage. Not a lot of natural knowledge just yet, and things got terrible for me. I had a reaction to the steroid. It fused my skin at a rate that was extremely alarming. I couldn’t walk for three months, couldn’t shower. My husband who was my boyfriend at the time, who was an incredible support network, was just my rock, and we could not be intimate for over a year. There were a lot of big challenges, of course, that now I work with folks through today. 

About six months to a year goes by of just absolutely no answers, no support, and that is when I met Chinese medicine. My entire path truly changed that day when I met my first TCM practitioner. It’s a fun story. I love saying how I found it. I was actually having breakfast with some friends in Australia. I was walking home to my car—walking to my car to go home, and I passed this door with this little paper sign written on it in pen. It just says, “Don’t tell me what’s wrong with you. I’ll tell you what’s wrong with you.” I was like, “What?” It said, “Chinese medicine.” I was like, “You know what? I’ve got nothing to lose.” With my heritage, I was like, I should probably reach out. This could be interesting, and so I did. 

Long story short there, they had a session available the next day. I go in. One of the biggest things I remember was when I opened this door. This male practitioner, he opened his arms immediately and said, “Welcome!” mentioning to come in for a hug, and all of my other dealings with the Western world were nothing like this. It was, “What do you need? You got four minutes.” It was like “Ah,” and I immediately started crying. He said, “We’re fine. We’re fine. Come in. Let me look at you.” He looks at my tongue, my pulse, my nails. I was shaking just—it was such an energetic exchange that I had never—I still can’t really put words to it. I’ve never felt something like that. He immediately looks at my tongue and my pulse and said—he says, “What condition do you have?” I said, “Lichen sclerosus. Have you worked with it?” He said, “No. No, no, no.” Back then, I was like, “But if you haven’t worked with it, how do you know how to treat it? He was like, “No, no, no, no. What I can tell you, your emotional state is so dysregulated. You have damp heat in your liver. Your digestion is very weak. The spleen meridian has no blood.” I was like, “What? What do all these things mean?” He then mentioned, “Hey, let’s get into the next room. Let’s start our treatment together.” Without going into too much detail, that’s really when I met Chinese medicine. My condition improved in the next month. It got significantly better in three, and then in about eight months from there, I was fully in remission of a condition that, for those of you listening with lichen sclerosus, “there is no cure,” you hear. There is no way to improve it. You just have to manage it and hope that you don’t get vulvar cancer. This is a totally different narrative than maybe what other folks have either experienced themselves or maybe you read online. 

Of course, with that success of the herbal protocol—I was doing qigong. I was changing my diet. I picked up yoga. I changed so many things. Like so many healers say, just going to have to happen. I knew that was when I needed to do this myself. I dedicated my next nine years to education in all schools of both Western and Eastern medicine, primarily beginning in Sydney, Australia, shadowing TCM practitioners, self-study, going to classes, going to conferences. I couldn’t get enough. It just started that entire world towards becoming a clinical practitioner. I guess other schools that were inside that container was the Colorado School of Clinical Herbalism, the Institute of Chinese Herbology under Kenneth Morris. I took up a flower essence certification under Demetria Clark. The list goes on there. I studied with Paul Bergner personally. I just couldn’t get enough. I studied qigong and acupressure therapy. I just wanted to give so many outlets to whoever I’d be working with later in life because I knew I would. I knew that was the path for me and that ended up with me opening up the Wildflower Clinic in 2016 in Golden, Colorado. Today, I now work primarily with lichen sclerosus across the United States and the world, in some cases. I also work with complex autoimmune cases and emotional trauma. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Wow! Almost ten years now, you’ve had your clinic. That’s very impressive. 

Dana Hutchinson:

Yes, I know. Crazy how time flies. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I just had goose bumps just listening to you, Dana, because our story—our health-healing story is pretty—just exactly parallel. Very similar things like not getting answers, things getting worse, being told to take the steroids, and of course, I took the steroids. 

Dana Hutchinson:

Right.

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Actually, when you said that, I felt better about myself. I was like, “Of course, I took the steroids.” 

Dana Hutchinson:

Right. When they list off all the benefits, you’re like, “Oh, that’s a no brainer.” 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

That’s a no brainer. I didn’t have the reactions to the steroids. I got 60 milligrams of prednisone, which is no joke. I just was superwoman, and then I felt so good that three days later, I was like, “Wait. Are there side effects?” Then I read the side effects and I went back to the doctor. I was like, “I got to get off these.” They’re like, “You can’t. You can’t stop taking them immediately because it will be even more worse.” 

Dana Hutchinson:

Oh, catastrophic. Yeah.

Rosalee de la Forêt: 

But it was just very—I just felt like such camaraderie with you because it’s very similar. I had that same thing. It was a terminal disease, and like “This is it,” and being able to heal from that, and then I just knew this is my path. Like, how many people are told this is it and it’s not? Prior to that, I just thought Western—I thought you go to herbs for booboos. They’re a nice hobby. After that, I was like, they actually have real answers. Same thing going to the practitioner too. I went to the practitioners and they just didn’t care that I had Still's disease. They’re like, “That doesn’t”—I’m like, “No, but I have an autoimmune disease that’s called ‘Still.’ It’s terminal.” They’re like, “Yeah, yeah, not a concern.” They just don’t care. They wanted to know who I was. Anyway, I just felt a lot of camaraderie there. 

Dana Hutchinson:

I know. It’s so lovely to be connected on that front because I think so many healers’ origin starts that way where you really almost had to wake up and say, “This can’t be the right path. Even if this works, look at all the long list of side effects that might potentially damage my health down the road.” Basically, that wake-up call of becoming our own advocate, I think we absolutely share. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Absolutely, and then the calling to help others. I can only imagine what a beacon of hope you must be to so many people out there. 

Dana Hutchinson:

It’s crazy. It’s a condition where they used to say it was a rare autoimmune condition. Today, I just do not believe that that is the case. We have so many sufferers coming to us, asking for help saying, “This is”—I’m told all the same things I just mentioned. “What do I do? I’m told that I’ll never be intimate again, that my labia will fuse over completely,” which it can. It’s a pretty aggressive condition. Today, what we try to really evoke and harness in our sessions is, “Hey, let’s get that lichen sclerosus diagnosis out of our minds. Let’s take it back to all the different root body systems and exposures in your life that probably combined to cause this inflammatory reaction.” I find when you break things down with clients like that, it seems like that’s so much more manageable to battle against, as opposed to saying, “You have an autoimmune condition. Your system is attacking yourself. You, you, you did all of this.” It can be really hard emotionally for clients to say, “How am I ever going to get through this?” If you say, “Okay. We have a ton of medication exposure. We lived across the street from a power plant for ten years. You had mold in your house. You just went through a divorce. Maybe you’ve eaten processed foods your whole life.” Just as some examples, you can almost help, I find, the clients figure out how this started. I think that helps them to find this roadmap to support those organ systems that might be deficient now. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

That’s such a gift of herbalism and Chinese medicine, just to look at the person and not the disease in many ways. 

Dana Hutchinson:

It’s huge. Even with facial mapping and looking at the whites of my client’s eyes. You can just infer vitality. I always say that we’re glorifying plants. It’s something we always open conferences with, and people are like, “Whoa! That’s actually kind of interesting.” I always say plants tell us when they need attention. Our skin tells us when it’s dry deficient, when we get acne, when we smell a certain way. I think as herbalists, we’re really taught to look at those signs as a deeper meaning. As opposed to just, “I have really bad BO. All my bowel movements are foul-smelling. I have gas. I have”—a lot of these things have just become normalized I find. They’re common, but they’re not normal. I think I could talk about that forever. It’s very cool to just be able to look at what the whole person is trying to convey. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Absolutely. So critical for so many things but I found, especially, for the autoimmune component because there’s just no one thing.

Dana Hutchinson:

No one thing. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I’m so excited that you chose jujube dates for us today because it’s a new one for the show. Also, when I went to TCM School, of course, jujube dates were highly lauded and loved. I was telling you earlier, I used to order them straight from a farm. We would just eat them all the time. It’s such a wonderful medicine, wonderful food, and I’m excited to hear what you have to share about jujube dates. 

Dana Hutchinson:

Oh, gosh. There is so much! You’ll have to stop me if I have too much to say here. Jujube is an awesome herb. It’s a date. It’s a fruit. It has many forms. There are many species, but the reason I wanted to talk about jujube is because it was actually one of the first herbs that was part of my protocol in Sydney, Australia. I was given mimosa flower to help my emotional state, which—oh, my gosh. I was very close to picking that one. I was also given a rice porridge recipe or a congee to make every morning with jujube date. That was kind of my first introduction to this beautiful, sweet, delicious fruit that was in my porridge. I loved it. It was delicious. I said, “I’ve never seen these before. They’re so good.” My Chinese doctor educated me a lot on why I needed jujube dates, which I think is relevant for today. He mentioned that my blood in my system was so depleted that I likely had so many different nutritional and mineral deficiencies. Therefore, an herb like jujube that contains so many polysaccharides, flavonoids, for the antioxidants, the minerals, the vitamins, would help to nourish my blood so that it could really start to repair the rest of my system. I had really bad cold hands and feet. I had poor circulation, fatigue. My nails were the color of bright white back then. I had no circulatory success with really any kind of warming activities, so my blood was weak, and that is a huge reason why I use jujube today as well, mostly in that decoction format, but as a primary blood nourishment herb. 

When you look at the physical constituents of jujube, it’s vast. There’s potassium. There’s phosphorous. There’s calcium. There’s iron. There’s B1, B2. There’s Vitamin C. It’s just so packed with nutrition and it is such a safe herb to use for most people, most days. It is not a pushy herb. It’s not a stimulant herb. It’s really classified as almost in that “food as medicine” category, which I love. I think that’s awesome! Also on that energetic side, I think it’s worth mentioning a bit about jujube. In Chinese homes, they will just have beautiful ornamental bowls with dried jujube date in it. In the Chinese culture, even just seeing a jujube date, it has properties to evoke fortune, good success, fertility, vitality, and change of the seasons. There’s almost this notion of good fortune when you see a jujube date that the Chinese culture really, really has had for almost 4,000 years since its first origin in a medicinal text. We, actually, in the Wildflower Clinic, we also have it just around the clinic in little bowls. I was like “I have to! I have to.” I think it’s nice to just have that calming property. 

It’s a beautiful red date for those of you who don’t know this herb just yet. A little bit of more on that, I guess botany side, this herb really actually grows as a tree. It is found all over Mainland China. It can also grow in the southwest region of the US. You’ll find them in California, in Texas, in the desert regions. They are about, I would say, maybe 1.5 to 3 centimeters. They look like an oblong cherry, I would say for those who aren’t aware of them. They’re so delicious. They taste so good. When I teach at certain herbalism schools and I’ll be decocting jujube maybe in a larger subset of herbs, I always tell the students to come up and grab a jujube date after it’s been decocted, because they’ll taste it and I love watching their first expression if they haven’t had one yet because it is so delicious. I know you’ve obviously, had lots of these in your life as well. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

It’s been a while because I’m not really sure where to get them right now. Do you have any suggestions on where to find jujubes? 

Dana Hutchinson:

You know, it’s very hard to find jujube date. We actually have a friend of ours cultivate them in California. We kind of have the OG connection there, but she has a property with a couple of different trees that we buy from. Otherwise, we used to use a company out in San Francisco, but they have since discontinued using jujubes. You can get them from some organic suppliers that come up seasonally. They are grown in China though, so you do have to just make sure that those herbs are being third party verified, and also being tested for just any sort of chemical or heavy metal components. Cultivating them yourselves is actually very realistic. It takes about two to three years to get your fruits, but if you’re committed, you will have a big, beautiful, healthy, 15-foot tree that produces jujubes every single season. Most commonly, in July-August season is when they’re at that full ripened date that you want to pick perspective. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

We need to inspire more people to do this for sure. 

Dana Hutchinson:

I know. We really do. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Then they can write to me. I’ll give them my address and they can send them my way. 

Dana Hutchinson:

Absolutely. Some of the bigger herbs suppliers I have seen them seasonally carry jujube dates. I have seen them pop up on Mountain Rose here and there. I have seen them pop up on—gosh, what is the other one? Starwest. Sometimes I’ve seen them on there. Very easy to get them wildcrafted from those southwest regions of the United States, for sure.  

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Cool. 

Dana Hutchinson:

Yeah, but I guess other things with jujube—I think clinical actions are pretty cool to pass on for anyone who wants to try to use this herb or this date. I really, really find that this date has a lot of anti-inflammatory properties. There are huge, huge amounts of antioxidant properties in this herb. I would also say it’s hepatoprotective, so supporting the liver. Then I also do believe that this has a lot of neuroprotection elements also by moving the blood and nourishing the blood. I think it can really reach probably, the entire system if we really fully studied this herb and its full capacity. From that Chinese medicine perspective, I would say it really shines in the heart and spleen meridian. The spleen is kind of the governor of blood. In Chinese medicine, it makes sure that the blood is rich, is nourished and is filtered appropriately. An herb like jujube, that has all those great nourishing components, really helps the spleen meridian. And then, of course, I think one of the bigger areas of jujube where it finds a beautiful place is in that emotional trauma front. I really love to combine this date with herbs like mimosa flower, herbs like Crataegus or hawthorn, Tilia, linden comes to mind, St. John’s wort. Just as a beautiful emotional ally, we find a lot of folks in the autoimmune world and also, obviously, battling lichen sclerosus, even if they don’t have emotional trauma outside of this condition. Battling the condition is enough to dysregulate the central nervous system. Having this herb come in and warm the interior and clear any sort of damp heat, nourish the blood, to tonify the chi, it can really feel a flood of—a surge, a flood of vitality moving through the body. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Wow! Your love of jujube really shines through. It really makes me want some right now. They are, like you said, so delicious. It’s beyond delicious though is what you’ve been sharing. They’re so nourishing that they just hit on a different level, I think. 

Dana Hutchinson:

I really think so too. I remember trying that in the congee. Again, for people who don’t know what that is, it’s really just you mix whatever you want, some beans, some herbs, some dates, some goji berries into a rice porridge, and you cook that in a sauce pan perspective. I remember tasting one of those and just saying, “What?” I did not expect that. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

For your recipe today, you’re sharing a decoction of a whole bunch of fabulous herbs as a “Lichen Sclerosus Decoction.” Will you go over that recipe with us just a little bit? 

Dana Hutchinson:

Yes, absolutely. This formula is one of the standard formulas I would say that we can formulate off of for LS. I really like using decoction medicine in my practice because I find—there are no fillers. There’s no alcohol. There’s no other things that people can react to. As we know in the autoimmune world, a lot of folks have histamine sensitivities and issues with all the things, so I like using decoctions for a lot of presentations of LS. This specific decoction is wonderful because, again, it’s not pushy. It’s not a formulation that’s going to stimulate or unbalance. It’s also not going to pull too much cold constituents out of it either. It’s a very, very neutral formula. Of course, we have to formulate off of things depending on the case. Really, this formula is intended to nourish the blood. 

Also, one of the biggest things is to drain dampness from the system. A lot of folks who have lichen sclerosus will have a diagnosis in TCM called, “damp heat.” You can still have an individual, like myself, who had really cold hands and feet, but is still experiencing this congealed stagnation in the third burner or around the stomach-pelvic region. With that, you definitely want to make sure that you’re gently dissipating the stagnation and the heat that’s congealing in the client’s body. That’s another big focus of this formula is nourish blood, drain damp heat, but also to improve immunity. A couple of immune herbs sprinkled throughout here to just balance innate immunity with a lot of the different minerals that are in these herbs. It would be helpful to go through each one and why they’re in there maybe?

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Sure! Yeah. 

Dana Hutchinson:

You guys know jujube now, so your main star for dietary deficiencies, warming the interior, improving chi. The next herb that’s in there is our peony root, “Bai Shao,” in Chinese pinyin. I love this herb because it’s a spleen tonic. It helps with digestive deficiencies as well. It also has origins of supporting the liver, which we know the liver can be responsible for having that damp heat due to exposures and all of the things, and that moistens the intestines a little bit, that peony root. I like that component of peony. 

The next one is shiitake, Lentinula. I love this herb too. Some folks aren’t the most keen on the taste there, so do use caution. It’s a very earthy taste when decocted. That herb is in here for its really high nutritional components like selenium, niacin, copper, B5, as well. In Chinese medicine, this mushroom is known as the “elixir of life,” a panacea. It does many things. It has adrenal components, cognitive components. It builds immunity. It also helps to protect our wei qi, which is our lung protective chi, which can sometimes be weak for certain LS clients. 

The next one a lot of you have heard of as probably fo-ti. This is He Shou Wu or Polygonum. This herb has a lot of origins as the anti-aging herb. You hear it all the time. This one is in there to nourish the kidneys, primarily. It helps with our kidney jing. Jing is, of course, our foundational essence in Chinese medicine. It is a subset of our maternal and paternal DNA, and then also, our lifestyle choices that we get to make as an individual. Those combine in Chinese medicine as your overall jing or essence. When you are sick and when you are not well, when you have inflammation, the kidney jing can be quite deficient, so that fo-ti herb is in there for that reason. 

Chinese red sage, my gosh. Just to give it one word, it’s just for the mind, the spirit. This herb also helps to clear heat which I really like, gently. It does not do so in a pushy way. 

Rehmannia is such an understudied herb, panacea, kidney-liver channels, homeostasis, also slightly able to drain and remove some heat. 

Dong quai deserves an entire book dedicated to it, but this is another one of my favorite, favorite herbs. Western clinical you will see that defined as more of an emmenagogue. West—excuse me—Eastern medicine views it as just absolutely everybody needs it everyday. We’re somewhere in the middle with our training, so I think that this herb is wonderful for tonifying blood, for harmonizing menstruation. A lot of LS clients are individuals who have menstruation issues, hormonal imbalances. Maybe they’re on HRT. There are some things that are clearly under and oversecreted in the system. Dong quai traditionally can really help to just balance everything on that hormonal front. It’s a small amount in the decoction, so very, very safe dosage there. 

The last one is just orange peel, one of my favorites. I say that about most of these, but orange peel is really cool because it is one of the premiere digestive tonic herbs that can drain stagnation. Again, drain that dampness from the stomach. A lot of folks who have distention, bowel disharmonization, gas, flatulence, irregular stools. A lot of folks will benefit from taking orange peel to tonify and relieve water or any dampness from the stomach. So, a modifying herb there. That’s the decoction. I think I gave the whole gram amount, about 450 grams that equates to a 30-day dosage. You want to use about that four tablespoon amount per five cups of water. You simmer it in a sauce pan and then you’re able to strain it and drink that throughout the day. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

That was a wonderful description of that formula. There are so many lessons in that in terms of how these things go together and how we’re thinking of, again, not an herb for lichen sclerosus or an herb for an autoimmune condition. We’re thinking about how they relate to the body during dampness and tonify the blood, etc. That was a beautiful explanation. That was a wonderful formula. 

Dana Hutchinson:

Yes, yes! I love it! You’re so right. My options were two things. In the Western world, you either get to take the clobetasol, the topical steroid, or you can take the estrogen and not saying that that might not work for folks. That might work for folks. You got to do what works for you. For me, it did not. Even just going through this formula, that’s, I think six or seven herbs. All the differences that come in of just the thought and the intention, the body system. It’s incredible just how much more there was to a case or a condition when I met Chinese medicine than just, “You have autoimmune. That’s inflammation. How do we get rid of inflammation? We take steroids or we take suppressants.” Again, that might work for folks, but it definitely, definitely was not the path for me. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

I’m so sorry for that suffering you went through. That was quite an ordeal. Kudos to you! What a gift you get to be now for all these people to turn around and be able to provide such help. 

Dana Hutchinson:

Thanks. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Is there anything else you’d like to share about jujube, Dana, before we move on?  

Dana Hutchinson:

We’ve talked a lot about it. I think that’s probably—the only thing I’d say is don’t discount jujube in immune formulations either. Immune formulations can be quite drying to the system in Chinese medicine. Herbs that come to mind are some more mushrooms, yarrow, indigo. There’s a lot of other things that can dry the mucous membranes. I think in a large set of materia medica, especially in the Western world, we have a lot of cold, dry herbs. So, jujube kind of finds this new place where it is slightly warming and also moistening. I think a lot of times you can use that as this flavor modulator, but also an herbal director to other places in the system. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Yay for jujube! Thank you so much for sharing so much wisdom on jujube. 

Dana Hutchinson:

Of course, of course. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Dana, I’d love to hear about some things—some other offerings you have into the world, like your beautiful deck. I would love to hear about that.  

Dana Hutchinson:

The deck! I love the deck. Yes. We have just released our Ancient 30 medicinal card deck and this was definitely a labor of love project for me. I really set out with this vision of marrying the art component of Chinese medicine with an educational resource that folks could use to begin to learn about the Top 30 herbs that we mostly commonly dispense at the clinic. That’s exactly what we did. Actually, all those herbs that I just mentioned in the Lichen Sclerosus Decoction are part of the herbal card deck. You can learn more about those. Each card is this botanical illustration on really thick paper. It’s like an educational card deck. You get to learn about the description, its origins, clinical actions, how to use it, sample doses. You also get a Chinese element match—excuse me—where it’s either going to water, wind, fire, connection. You get to learn a bit more about what that means too. I was very happy to release that, and just share knowledge of herbs with more individuals. It’s stocked in a couple of herb schools here in Colorado where they get to use that as a little educational resource. It’s just been awesome to see that help so many people. You can pull cards. I’ve got the little jujube one right here. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Oh, cool!

Dana Hutchinson:

Here it is! You can leave that out and have that as your “Herb of the Week.” There’s a lot of uses for it. That is something I just love. I’ve got way too many of them around my house. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

It would be fun to take a peek. It’s just stunning, the artwork and everything. I love the—I’m a very practical person myself, so I love the combination of the beauty and the practical. 

Dana Hutchinson:

It’s like we definitely want the art, but we also want to inform how to use this herb if someone were to trial that for sure. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Beautiful. We’ll put a link to that in the show notes for folks to check out. I should have mentioned too that for people listening or watching, we’ll have a link in the show notes to the decoction as well, so you can get that full recipe. I think I just have one last question for you, Dana, and that last question is: How do herbs instill hope in you?

Dana Hutchinson:

Gosh. You know I could answer that question in so many ways. I think I’ve hinted at this throughout our time together. My answer would be: I think we haven’t even grazed the surface of studying how herbs can make a positive impact in all health. I know there are so many herbs that we use for certain constituents already that are studied and that are in our materia medica textbook and our herbal educational books. But I think what brings me hope is just the whole idea that—we have barely any funding in the herbal world. We have so much more that I think each herb could be applied towards in terms of conditions or presentations or symptoms. That makes me really hopeful that we can continue to utilize plant medicine to support even a more wide array of health conditions. 

To give folks an example, if we have a client who is maybe dealing with insomnia as opposed to—and again, this might be for folks instead of taking a sleep medication to turn off all the functions of the body, maybe you turn to herbs that naturally contain elements of melatonin like milky oats or feverfew or St. John’s wort. Maybe that stress response system is dysregulated. We’re hypersecreting cortisol or adrenaline. Maybe we lean on nutritionally-rich herbs, so that the whole stress response system can use those minerals and nutritional components, and not secrete as much adrenaline and cortisol when we are under attack. Those are just some examples that as herbalists we know how to draw those constituents, those actions, to support those presentations. I think herbs have so many more gifts and so many more constituents, phenols and polyphenols, and all these incredible things that we haven’t even applied towards a certain demographic of folks, let’s say, experiencing MS or experiencing lupus. That gives me, personally, so much hope. It really does. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

That’s beautiful. I can definitely feel you on that sentiment. There’s so much potential, really in the herbs. 

Dana Hutchinson:

So much potential. I say that. I could have said so many other things, but I think with folks listening, a lot of people are probably interested in this world already, and might have some knowledge under their belts. I think as you’re learning herbalism or even if you’re a practitioner applying herbs daily for your clients, I think that helps me to keep going too when maybe you do come across some complex cases or some really severe presentations because most folks are coming to my office as a last resort. We know this. It helps me to just think as each year I am a student for life. I continue to learn and to dive in to all these other things with herbs that by doing that, we can continue to just help more and more people with more and more inflammatory presentations. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

It makes me think about just before I really became—before I did become an herbalist, I thought herbs were for booboos. Then I got to see that was not the case, then I had my mind blown so many times since then, so that’s a beautiful sentiment. Thank you so much for sharing that. May we keep working towards that potential, understanding with more clarity just how wonderful these herbs can be. 

Dana Hutchinson:

It’s all we can do and just try to help as many people as we can. I would say that’s currently what’s giving me the most hope with herbs. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Thank you so much, Dana. Thanks for being here. Thanks for sticking it out with our tech troubles and then sharing. It was so much love and enthusiasm for jujube and working with folks with lichen sclerosus and autoimmunity. Thanks for doing the great, great work in this world and helping so many people. 

Dana Hutchinson:

Thank you and absolutely same to you. Such an honor to just chat with you today. I hope this can inspire people and instill hope. Folks out there have LS and you’re listening, there are options out there for you. I think that also is a big hope for people that there are other things you could look into. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Absolutely. Thank you for sharing so beautifully on all of that, Dana. It’s been a pleasure. 

Dana Hutchinson:

Awesome! Thanks, Rosalee, and I’m sure we’ll chat soon. 

Rosalee de la Forêt:

Wonderful. 

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Alright, here’s a fun one. Archaeologists have found jujube seeds in Neolithic sites across China showing that humans have been cultivating and enjoying these fruits for over 4,000 years. In some regions, they were even used as a form of currency. So, if you’ve ever felt like jujubes are rich in nourishment, you’re not wrong. 

Thanks for joining me on this herbal adventure. I’ll see you next time.

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